Moral Values: The Shinning City on the Hill!

Published on November 6, 2004 By hitparade In Politics

"How far that little candle throws his beams!" Portia, Merchant of Venice.

On fox news, I just heard a democrat hack suggest the election outcome fraudulent because the result conflicts with exit poll data. At approximately 7:00 p.m., on election night, this party hack was sipping on champagne, celebrating a kerry win. Then, the juggernaut of raw data/real votes (the only data worth a lick of salt) resulted in this hack having to cork her bottle.

This hack is a perfect example of a self-hating American determined to unite post-election America? These hacks just don't get it. Values count. Not just bible thumping values (I personally don't oppose gay marriage; frankly, I don't care enough one way or the other); but also American values: Freedom, etc...

I ask: Why do the elite circles of "world citizens", e.g., U.N. Sec. Kofi, irrationally despise this Country? To the liberal world elitist, I have seen much of the world and it is a dark and shitty place. America, for all her short comings, is, indeed, a shinning city on the hill. "

Comments (Page 2)

sunwukong

on Nov 06, 2004

"Disappointment." What is the allocation of economic resources premised on? In a nutshell, your circular argument boils down to "expecting better" from America. Why? Seriously, what do you want, expect?

Actually I was parodying your statement about a "a shining city on a hill". This is an unmistakably positive image meant as a beacon/example for others to follow. To be blunt, I was basically saying it is a mistake, even a trap, to try and suppose the US would be doing things more ethically or fairer due to its dominant position.

Seriously, what do you want, expect?

Myself, actually nothing more. I'm of the cynical, power politics generation that believes the USA is our best neighbour up and until there's something we both want.

You resent America because you are forced to "bend over".

No doubt there's a bit of that in my attitude -- but that's likely present in every inferior partner in a power relationship.

Your Country should shed America's economic yoke of repression. Why not boycott America.

Certainly impractical in the short term. It's the same reason people rob banks, "Because that's where the money is." Until India and/or China exceed the USA's market power, the convenience of selling/buying from you is too great.

Your Country unabashedly drains American resources without making any meaningful contribution to the freedom and prosperity you enjoy as result of the America's "disappointing" behavior.

You're either trolling for points now or are truly ignorant.

What value is there to a virtually unguarded northern border the length of the whole country?
What value is there to a neighbour of similar culture that presents unfettered access to its markets and allows its best products, resources and people to head south?
What value is there to a military ally who allows bases, signalling and detection stations plus testing and training in environments otherwise inconveniently unavailable?
What value is there to a neighbour whose reactions in times of crisis (e.g., 9/11) is immediately assumed to be both friendly and helpful?

Your universal access to the best medicine in the world is the direct result of corporate America's R&D.

Now you're going for surreal -- remember that corporate America's R&D is in the USA. Why aren't your national measures of health (e.g., infant mortality, life expectancy) higher than ours?Are you saying that somehow Canada has the economic clout to siphon off the benefits of your R&D to benefit us greater than yourselves?

And yet seeing an American spread a big smile across his face, as he uttered, in broken English, the word freedom. The concept of freedom was not associated with France, or Canada, but with America. Begrudge this American from elatedly feeling pride in that? In a shinning city on a hill.

Begrudge it? No.

Believe in its truth today? I don't believe the average American has fundamentally more freedom than any other citizen in the G8 (witness your Patriot Act, the DMCA, etc.) nor do I believe that the US acts more in the direct interest of freedom than all other nations. It seems to be more past reputation than anything else.

It would be unrepentent egotism that suggests that only the USA is capable of achieving or even has solely achieved, as a society, an equivalent level of democracy and openness. In the past it has certainly led the way for the world to follow, but nowadays ...

Economically -- the USA is just as open and protectionist as the EU (and often, as rivals, in the same areas)
Culturally -- insisting on harmonizing intellectual property regimes regardless of local concerns ceraintly buys you no friends at the grassroots
Domestically -- keeping the death penalty on minors leaves you in an odd bunch of peers, nevermind the death penalty itself
Foreign Policy -- currently a morass of contradictions (e.g., Iraq v. N Korea & Iran) and half-hearted efforts (e.g., Israel, Afghanistan)

On a microscopic, point by point tallying of everything positive, the USA probably still comes out ahead of everyone else. But as an example to follow? Canada and other countries, in many areas, can and have done better.

Chemicalkinetics

on Nov 06, 2004

Economically -- the USA is just as open and protectionist as the EU (and often, as rivals, in the same areas)
Culturally -- insisting on harmonizing intellectual property regimes regardless of local concerns ceraintly buys you no friends at the grassroots
Domestically -- keeping the death penalty on minors leaves you in an odd bunch of peers, nevermind the death penalty itself
Foreign Policy -- currently a morass of contradictions (e.g., Iraq v. N Korea & Iran) and half-hearted efforts (e.g., Israel, Afghanistan)

Your Economic statement is untrue. USA government intervene its trade less so than most European countries. Look at the tax and interest code. One way to regulate trade is through tax and interest. USA has lower tax than more european country and less trade tariffs.
Cultural statement. This make no sense. I never heard of culture related to intellectual property. A culture of a country is not related to that at all. It is about the values of a soceity not Microsoft words. Look, American value honest and personal expression..., and guess what, most other countries are persuring those and looking at US for lead. When you look at foreign country policy makers, they offer refer to: "Well, United States has proved this policy works...." Domestical: We believe in death penalty and what's wrong with that? Beside domestic is lot more than just death penalty. Most countries on earth believe in death penalty. People refers issues like tax code, voting right, roads and building, police force depolyment as domestic also.
Foreign policy: Contrdiction? Any contradiction we have is minor compare to other countries. Why should one compare Iraq to N. Korea and Iran, seriously? Has N. Korea or Iran recently attacked and invaded another country? Has either country congratulated 9/11 terrorist act after Septemeber 11st? Iraq broke its own peace treaty with USA for 13 years, has N. Korea and Iran do that? Should we compare Iraq to England too? Regarding Israel and Afghanistan, at least we do something. Has any another country do anything for Afghanistan for the last 10 -20 years? If your country didn't, then stop complaing that we are not doing enough. Why didn't you do anything?

Texas Wahine

on Nov 06, 2004

Troll me if you need to . . . I couldn't help myself.

sunwukong

on Nov 06, 2004

USA has lower tax than more european country and less trade tariffs.

Are you just talking about personal marginal rate? Or are you including business taxes? What about other costs of doing business, e.g., employee medical, pension, etc.? In terms of competitiveness, the US isn't even ranked #1 anymore (Link). Obviously the world is learning something about doing business right.

I never heard of culture related to intellectual property.

I was trying to avoid polemic about "cultural imperialism" and such. What I was trying to get at is that imposing the US intellectual property regime on other countries has the non-business effect of promoting the culture most closely related to the interests that produced the rules, i.e., American culture and content.

Look, American value honest and personal expression..., and guess what, most other countries are persuring those and looking at US for lead.

It's true that the American individual values these things, but the American state offers much less protection for these than it once did, e.g., DMCA.

When you look at foreign country policy makers, they offer refer to: "Well, United States has proved this policy works...."

As happened in Europe when several EU representatives voted for a harmonized IP regime against the explicit wishes of the people they represented. A huge scandal that's still being resolved.

Obviously countries can learn from the US (and vice versa) -- my point about IP laws was that following the US example in this case would lead to less cultural freedom for their people rather than more.

Most countries on earth believe in death penalty

How many of these countries would the US point to as having the same values and/or a commitment to freedom?

People refers issues like tax code, voting right, roads and building, police force depolyment as domestic also.

Obviously I'm not trying to be exhaustive with each category -- how could i? I'm trying to provide a single example for each that would illustrate my point.

Why should one compare Iraq to N. Korea and Iran, seriously

N. Korea & Iran are both
- harboring governments opposed to the US
- suppressing the freedoms of their respective populations
- actively pursuing a nuclear weapons program, including delivery systems

Sound familiar?

Has any another country do anything for Afghanistan for the last 10 -20 years?

Are you saying that the US is the sole country involved in Afghanistan? If so, you better start reading more widely.

If your country didn't, then stop complaing that we are not doing enough. Why didn't you do anything?

Oddly enough, I am in the position to complain.

Even if my country wasn't involved, why can't I argue from the perspective of someone who's worried that the Karzai government is a fiction that doesn't extend outside of Kabul?

sunwukong

on Nov 06, 2004

Troll me if you need to . . . I couldn't help myself.

Whew, I'm glad you did! I thought I was going to explode!

Chemicalkinetics

on Nov 06, 2004

American personal tax are lower than that of Western European, and European business are heavily regulated by government. For example, no one will question that labor union is much more powerful in Europe than in USA. At the same times, many European countries allow government offical to simultaous hold positions in labor union and in governement. Hmmm. Governments over in Europe not only have more influences, but their officals are more easier to be influenced by outside interests. Thus, American business market is indeed free-er than most European countries. Another other point, most European countries are alot more into socialist than USA, socialism inheritially involves government control -- you cannot induce government benefits and programs without government controls. So, I simply don't see how you think European market is more free. It is also increditably diffcult to lay off workers in German for example, thus German companies often hire over-sea worker to avoid the regulation psoted by the Unions.

Sorry, now I really don't understand you. Maybe you can give me an example?

How many of these countries would the US point to as having the same values and/or a commitment to freedom?

A lot. Like Japan and Korea. American is lot different than Europe, we never try to be the same. For example, Americans are aveagely alot more religious compared to European. I don't see why America has to be the same as Europe. If that is your argument.

Obviously I'm not trying to be exhaustive with each category -- how could i? I'm trying to provide a single example for each that would illustrate my point.

Yes, I agree. At the same time, it is too easy to pick one or two issues, right?

[

The difference between these three countries is significant. It is more than the existance of weapon. There is also the intention to use it on USA. Like I pointed out, Saddam is the only who praised the 9/11 terriosts. That shows strong intention. Russian intelligent (according to Putin) that Saddam was staging a terriost act on USA. More important, there was a cease-fire agreement between USA and Iraq since 1992. Saddam agreed that he will destoryed all of his WMD and show evidence to USA. He fails to do do for 12 years, and therefore benched a cease-fire agreement. Have you ever heard of benching a ceasefire agreement for 12 years? Neither N. Korea nor Iran has shown the same ill-intention as Iraq, and there was not any cease-fire agreement between USA and the other two countries.

Are you saying that the US is the sole country involved in Afghanistan? If so, you better start reading more widely.

First of all, American is the only major power in Afghanistan, the numbers of soldiers and money and resouces involved is not even comparable. Second, if another countries think we are doing a "half-hearted" job as you put it. Then they are either doing nothing or even less than USA. Look at the logic here, if American is the one invested the most people, money and resources and it is still considered as "half-hearted", what would you call those who devoated less? Heartless?

My answer to you is no. You may not complain until your country devotes more than USA. I will give you an easy example, if you and I walk on the street together and we walked by a donation center for AID curse foundation (or something like that sort). I decide to give the foundation $100, and you donated $1. Later you complain that I didn't do enough. Can you complain in a practical sense? Yes, because you have a voice. Is it reasonable for you to complain? No. Because if you truely care more than I do (that is the only vaid reason to complain), then why don't you give more than I do? I think to be fair. You have to complain the lack of act from other countries before USA. How can you complain the most involved one?

Chemicalkinetics

on Nov 06, 2004

So you can't respond to my great debate points anymore, huh? What you have said do not make logical sense, go home and think about it.

sunwukong

on Nov 07, 2004

Reply By: ChemicalkineticsPosted: Saturday, November 06, 2004So you can't respond to my great debate points anymore, huh? What you have said do not make logical sense, go home and think about it.

Uh huh -- maybe I would make more "logical sense" if I ignored my family and hung around the keyboard debating you all day.

American personal tax are lower than that of Western European

Who's lower: UK, Switzerland, Iceland (except highest income ranges), Ireland (middle & lower income ranges),

So, I simply don't see how you think European market is more free.

What I said was: the USA is just as open and protectionist as the EU (and often, as rivals, in the same areas). Please make sure you don't misquote me before you misunderstand my point.

It is also increditably diffcult to lay off workers in German for example, thus German companies often hire over-sea worker to avoid the regulation psoted by the Unions.

Of course that could never happen in the United States ...

What I was trying to get at is that imposing the US intellectual property regime on other countries has the non-business effect of promoting the culture most closely related to the interests that produced the rules, i.e., American culture and content.Sorry, now I really don't understand you. Maybe you can give me an example?

Sure, take copyright protection. In the USA it has been extended several times to something like twenty years past the death of a work's creator. Unlike many developing countries, the USA has a formal system of registering copyright. How does adopting this system help a developing nation protect its culture? At the very least, its an added expense they don't need.

How many of these countries would the US point to as having the same values and/or a commitment to freedom?A lot. Like Japan and Korea.

Somewhat of a stretch (especially if you ask citizens from those countries), but I'll concede it narrowly since I allowed you to expand this point beyond juvenile executions.

It is more than the existance of weapon.

Actually that's the largest difference -- Saddam never had a nuclear arsenal nor the capability to hit the USA.

Saddam is the only who praised the 9/11 terriosts. That shows strong intention.

Saddam was the only one directly in conflict with US forces at the time as well, e.g., the no fly zone.

Saddam agreed that he will destoryed all of his WMD and show evidence to USA. He fails to do do for 12 years

Oh no, don't tell me you're one of those deluded people who think Saddam still had WMDs?!!!

First of all, American is the only major power in Afghanistan

What other major powers are there that have had a direct threat from Afghanistan lately?

Look at the logic here, if American is the one invested the most people, money and resources and it is still considered as "half-hearted", what would you call those who devoated less? Heartless

I'll simplify this for you: in order to save your life you need to pay me $10 for your operation. Your friends and family only give me $2 total. You have $20 but spend $14 on a slot machine in the casino. That leaves you $6 to spend instead of the $8 you need. I call that "half hearted" because you had the money but chose to waste it somewhere else. Keep in mind that it's your life to save -- do you necessarily depend on your friends and family to save you if could do it yourself? Especially if you decide not to in front of all of them?

How can you complain the most involved one?

It's not a complaint from someone who will lose the most if you fail. It's the complaint of someone who sees a friend fail due to their own poor choice.

hitparade

on Nov 07, 2004

Excerpt from The Associated Press:

"France's retaliation prompted mob violence in Ivory Coast's national commercial capital, Abidjan, as thousands of angry loyalists armed with machetes, axes and clubs took to the streets in search of French targets.

"French go home!'' loyalist mobs shouted, as thousands set fire to at least two French schools and tried to storm a French military base in Abidjan, seeking out French civilians as French and Ivory Coast forces briefly traded gunfire.

'Everybody get your Frenchman!'' young men screamed, swinging machetes.'"

The French, the same nation-state that allied with Nazi Germany in W.W.II, and relished in the rounding up and extermination of Jews, is at again; still getting a big colonial kick out of repressing Africans. After the Second war, France should have been treated as the enemy to humanity that they obviously are.

kingbee

on Nov 07, 2004

France should have been treated as the enemy to humanity that they obviously are

by turning the whole place into a concentration camp?

luckily they hadnt yet shown their evil side in the late 1700s or we woulda been friendless during our revolution.

still you have a point about colonial france. if wed stood up to them, we would never have found ourselves fighting the vietnam nationalists.

hitparade

on Nov 07, 2004

W.H. Auden Wrote:

For the truth cannot be hid;
Somebody chose their pain,
What needn't have happened did.

The French have a long history. My complaint is where they stand now; Lafayette’s been dead a long time now. No?

hitparade

on Nov 07, 2004

Responding to the suggestion that Canada boycott the American market place, sunwukong wrote:

"Certainly impractical in the short term. It's the same reason people rob banks, "Because that's where the money is." Until India and/or China exceed the USA's market power, the convenience of selling/buying from you is too great. "

This statement implicates the inevitable rise & fall of world powers.

Queries:

When precisely (define long term) will China &/or India exceed the market power of the USA? What will the respective market share of these powers be? What will be their respective strengths & weaknesses? Will political & social issues affect this propsoition; should such considerations factor in to Canada’s expected convenience in shopping at Chinamart?

Concerning Canada’s healthcare system, sunwukong wrote:

"Now you're going for surreal -- remember that corporate America's R&D is in the USA. Why aren't your national measures of health (e.g., infant mortality, life expectancy) higher than ours? Are you saying that somehow Canada has the economic clout to siphon off the benefits of your R&D to benefit us greater than yourselves?"

My pregnant sister had a horrific time while in Canada. At one urgent point, she was told she would have a 5 week wait to see a doctor. Her husband (now an American citizen) had to drop everything to drive across the border to get the urgent care my sister and nephew required. I have heard of penicillin shortages, etc… Are you really sure Canada's healthcare system is all that you pretend?

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